/hell/ - internet death cult

>>2990
>>2991
>>2993

I should've said "biological female body", because that's really what I meant.

Let's say they identify as female - then nothing less than a biological female body would resolve their dysphoria.
Making them a male eunuch is clearly not an answer.

You would have much better chances going the turn female by magic route described earlier.
Not to mention that sex transmutation magic won't work if a person is castrated.

>>2990
Flesh hole cut out by doctors != vagina
Does the cut out flesh hole work exactly as a real vagina does?
I think we have to answer no.

>>2992
triggered by the word mutilate

>To physically harm as to impair use, notably by cutting off or otherwise disabling a vital part, such as a limb. To destroy beyond recognition. (figuratively) To render imperfect or defective.
Well that's exactly what they do to their male genitals.
If you want to use the word surgery, I guess it works, but I find this word far more suitable.

For the mainstream medical establishment, there's no such thing as a "cure".
There's only masking symptoms, that's all that surgery and drugs do: mask symptoms.
They wouldn't make much money if they actually cured people.

>>2993
You can't bounce a question like that back at someone else.

Man/woman are very much physical realities; trying to tie them to culture is an exercise in futility because there are many different cultures and just as many ways of treating men and women across countries and time periods. The only constants tend to be those that are dictated by biological reality - that, for example, men are so much stronger than women individually it beggars belief, and so "heavy" work has historically across cultures been the realm of men, not due to some inborn hate of women carrying bricks but due to simple natural selection - a man will carry more bricks than a woman for longer.

Seriously try to define being a woman. Acting womanly does not make you a woman any more than acting like a cat makes you a cat. Trying to argue so equates transgender people with furries and that does you no favors.

>>2994
Well, dysphoria can be triggered by different things for different people, which means that it can be managed or reduced by a lot of different things. It's true that medicine can't give you a fully working uterus and everything, but I am not aware of dysphoria ever being caused by that (though maybe it can be); at worst it seems to be external genitals (definitely doable) and secondary sex characteristics like bone structure (can't really do much) and voice (can be affected by hormones and practice). In any case helping mostly is still better than not helping

>>2995
fuck appendectomies, they only mask the symptoms

>>2996
As you said, most of being a man or woman is culturally defined. Don't ask me, my answer is "whatever society says it is". What society thinks they are is these rough clusters of associated social roles, physical traits and personality traits. I think people would be healthier if we allowed more flexibility in where people fit into/outside of those clusters, because forcing diverse people into categories which are sometimes very narrow can only be done through psychological and physical violence. Part of that is accepting people whose genes, physical body type and the identity/presentation/role in society don't all match the way we're used to.

>>2997
what caused the need for the surgery in the first place.
inflamed appendix?
To maximize profit they want you to believe that these things just happen for no good reason or from something "immutable" like genetics.
Instead of deal with the cause directly - we'll just cut out the "diseased" part.

>>2997
Ultimately all of those things don't help at all. Not one bit.
Deep down, even if the biological male appears as a woman, they still know they will always be more or less completely functionally inadequate when compared to the genuine article.
They will never be functional as a woman, and through hormones they are diminishing their potential to become functional as a man.
Disgust is the biologically ingrained reaction designed to keep the body away from illness, and that is the only reaction any healthy person has towards this illness.

>>2997
>my answer is "whatever society says it is".
Which society? From what time period? Which part of society? Of what age group? As associated with which stereotypes and tastes? You dodge about because you don't actually have an answer. When I tell you to think about what a woman is, I'm not being sarcastic or caustic; I'm asking you to really fucking think about it and ask why you want to be treated like something you're not just because you act as if you are. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being womanly as a man or being manly as a woman, but that doesn't make you the other. All you're doing is making yourself out to be incapable of accepting reality. Not everyone is born as they wish. In fact, I'd argue nobody is. Being a woman 'inside' is as nonsensical as being black 'inside' or being intelligent 'inside'. You're born as the result of RNG, and Cheat Engine doesn't exist in real life.

>>2999

Yep, gonna have to agree there. The further you get into dysphoria, the more miserable you become. It sucks to have it but the only way out is to reject it and keep growing.

>>2989
It's because sushi rolls love one another! : D
To all the sushi rolls asking for definition of women, I find it surprising nobody has mentioned what is arguably the most important:
+Women can get pregnant.+
I liked this video by vihart:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hmKix-75dsg

>>2990
>I can also attest that yes, it will give you a vagina.
LMAO no. A rotting wound which you have to keep open using dialation and made out of a penis/colon is not the same as a vaginal canal which includes muscles, nerve-endings and the ability to self lubricate/clean. It's not comparable to comething which is connected to a cervix, womb and ovaries which can create life. It doesn't menstruate.

The difference is that as a socialised man, you've come to think of vaginas as nothing more than a hole to have sex with. To women, they're so much more and they do not sexualise them. I know this is harsh but people need a strong dose of reality because pushing this pseudoscience and encouraging others to get surgery that makes them more depressed than before is sick.

>>2983
I haven't been replying to anything but I have been reading it all and checking the thread regularly.

>>3004
Actually, since I'm here, I'd like to elaborate on something. People in the thread keep discussing gender reassignment surgery, BUT:

If I transition, I'm probably not getting it.

There's too high a chance of something going wrong, and that's the last place on my body I want a fucked-up surgery. Even if it all goes well, its still a wound. Do I actually like my penis? No, certainly not. But that's not my primary concern. Sex doesn't matter THAT much to me. I just want to be able to look enough like a woman to not hate myself when I look in the mirror and for people not to assume I'm a guy with long hair when I pass them at the grocery store. I know there's facial surgery but I don't know how safe that is in comparison although I do know of some successful cases.

>>3005

>that pic

Makes me v sad

>>3002
>+Women can get pregnant.+
So are women with reproductive issues not really women? Do women become men at menopause? Would you consider a woman getting her tubes tied to be a form of FtM sexual reassignment surgery? Maybe the reason no one has mentioned that yet is because it's nowhere near the most important thing, and doesn't hold up to any amount of scrutiny.

Good video though.

>>3007
It comes down to reproduction. I get the sensation described in viharts vid about this… I find it difficult to image not caring if you can reproduce or not. The desire to change from a fertile man to an infertile woman is extremely strange. Not that I wish harm on these people, but I find it very difficult to not see them as wishing harm on themselves.

>>3000
Whichever time and place they live in, of course. When it comes down to it gender is a *label* we apply to people and the criteria used to determine who falls under which one are different.

Ultimately, that's what it comes down to. People are saying that ultimately you can't detatch how someone lives and is related to by others from the body parts they were born with. That's why there's the fetishization of genitalia as the epitome of gender, the obsession with sex reassignment surgery as opposed to all the other parts of the trans spectrum, etc…

This is why the sex/gender division came about. I knoooow people will complain about those words and say that they must be the same (words are social constructs, fuck you) so instead let's say sex characteristics (the body), hormonal environment, personality and social position. You say that sex characteristics are ultimately the meaning of masculinity/femininity and something that people can do wrong. But - 1. That's your own definition of man/woman that you're thus forcing on others. 2. When you see someone and categorize them as a man, are you thinking about what kind of dick they have (and had as a baby!) or what that gender means for what kind of person they are and how you relate to them socially? 3. I'd bet it's the latter, and thus, can you really say that you view having exactly the right genitals (and having had them from birth!) as the most important part of being a man? 4. On top of that, this is what creates a lot of shame in cis men and women who feel they don't fit the mold. If you're against that as you say, then you need to realize that your own ideas about what is a "real" man or woman are part of that problem.

>>3008
That on the other hand is just sexist nonsense, whether you intend it to be or not. A cis woman's or man's value isn't defined by whether they produce offspring for the state, so why should a trans person's? Ultimately your argument is the one which ends up arguing that females just need to stay home and make babies and males just need to facilitate and control that. If you see having children by blood as important to you? Great, but don't judge others by if that's part of their path

>>3008
I feel like you didn't actually respond to my post, but okay

>I get the sensation described in viharts vid about this… I find it difficult to image not caring if you can reproduce or not.
You mean the sensation she described as "idiot teenager feelings?" The whole point of that video is that it's important to realize that not everyone thinks the same way that you do, and that what's important to you might not be important to someone else, and vice-versa.

>The desire to change from a fertile man to an infertile woman is extremely strange
So are you okay with trans people who don't get surgery (i.e. most of them) and therefore remain fertile? It's true that HRT reduces fertility, but it doesn't destroy it completely. Also, how do you feel about non-trans people who choose to be infertile, via vasectomies or tube-tying? Do you see that as a form of self-harm?

>>3005

Just work towards doing the sex change through magic like >>2964 suggests

If you reach a high level in yoga, or some sort of ritualistic magic
there are apparently no limits as to what you can accomplish on a physical level.
In the beginning this means getting healthy, because only a healthy body can support a powerful mind.
But also quitting pornography and learning to prevent ejaculation.

And who knows, as soon as you reach a certain level of health you might not experience any body dysphoria anymore.

>>3003
Thank you, sushi! You just said what I've been trying to put into words for a while now.

>>3008
I haven't participated in this discussion until now, but just chiming in on this – I don't think there's anything wrong with not caring about children or fertility. There's an entire pan of society that adheres to childfree beliefs, and claiming that a woman who doesn't want children is some kind of abomination or failure is kind of an outdated way of thinking.

Ultimately, how one views themselves is influenced by how others see them (and thus how society defines gender). We judge whether someone is a man or woman by their physical appearance, behaviour, and, yes, genitals. Varying degrees of dysphoria lead to different consequences, and while someone would be fine with 'passing' and being recognized in public as a person of the other gender, others are too deep in the condition to handle seeing a cock or a vag down there.

I think that, if the entire medical process (in terms of mental health, pre-surgery treatment, …) was better handled, and if we had more support options for those abandoned by their families (family rejection and substance abuse are significant predictors for suicide attempts), a lot more people could be saved. And then, of course, you have the whole discourse about whether or not accepting trans people as an 'attribute', rather than a mental illness that needs to be corrected back to their sex, is worth the societal impact it will have. That's another subject.

But it's definitely more complicated than just having kids or not. We live for more than that.

>>8578
Gender is a societally-defined label but sex is not, and gender is influenced by sex in a nontrivial way.

>that's your own definition of…
No, it's the dictionary definition. The word means sex. Gender is something else entirely, and is a societal definition that means shit all in the grand scheme of things.

2. When you see someone and categorize them as a man
I think of the fact that they're literally male, build muscle faster, stick it in instead of get it stuck in them, and so on. If I wanted to say someone was a musclebound chad, I'd call him that - or failing that, and what you're thinking of, manly.

3. You bet wrong. Being a man means one specific thing, namely a human adult male. Being MANLY is something else entirely and is totally detached from the genitals you're born with or what age you are - little girls can be more manly than adult men with twelve inch cocks, but that doesn't make them an adult man.

4. shame in cis men and women
Then they can either cope or fix it. People feel shame all the time. Lardballs feel shame when they're fat and learn to either live with and embrace it or work hard to get rid of what they're ashamed of. Weak people feel shame when they're weak and either learn to own it or go to the gym. The uneducated either decide that not knowing calc really isn't that big of a deal anyway or they go to adult university and start reading to fix themselves. If you're cis and you don't fit the mold, you can either own it - fuck you, I'm a man in a frilly skirt, the fuck you're going to do about it? - or you can change to fit the mold. If you do neither then you end up miserable - the fatass who knows he's fat but is too lazy to go jog and hates himself for it, the scrawny kid who pretends he doesn't care but looks at the football players with envy, the uneducated lump who hates how he doesn't know shit but also can't bring himself to try to learn - or the trans guy who desperately wishes he was a woman but can't bear to actually act like one, instead hoping to change what can't be changed so he can fit a different mold.

You keep lecturing me but you barely have your own ideas straight. You're the one conflating gender and sex here, not me. One of the two is just a label, and utterly irrelevant. The other can't be changed and is a physical reality of the world.

>>3014
>little girls can be more manly than adult men with twelve inch cocks
The delusion is incredible

>>3015
Everything is possible in anime world.

>>2942
Gender doesn't exist. Sex does.

god this thread is awful, very unshushilike

>>3044
then let it die

>>3044
better trans discussion that most of the net honesty

>>3044
In what way?

What's this topic doing in my sushichan?
honestly I couldn't care less what ppl do with their lives or their sexuality, I don't understand why humans love to be so judgemental, always have to be fighting over race or political party or whatever instead of trying to make the best of one's limited time and space, instead choose to fight over other people's choices or something. Now I do understand some communities have their less desirable traits, but that's inherent to all humans in one way or another and many shortcomings of human character will surface whether they are allowed to wear a dress or not
but seriously, why do people have to fight about this shit? Seems like a waste of energy

>>3066
To you and anyone looking to criticize this thread, please sage next time instead of bumping it.

>>3066
It doesn't bother you because it doesn't impact your life. The people who get heated about it are the ones it will directly affect (i.e. women) or who have had a negative experience in the past. You will never really understand but you should at least try to educate yourself.

>>2942
I can relate to what you are saying OP. I was told/thought nobody would love me, but it was kinda the opposite actually. I started HRT in college. going through it all can be difficult, you will probably see things from a new perspective but in a lot of ways its worth doing.being pretty can bring about its own issues though. like i stopped kinda caring so much about perfecting image and realized a lot of my internalized hatred didn't go away because i finally looked cute and the goalpost just shifts.it also can lead to people just using you for sex or harassing you and getting violent because they cant handle the idea that a tran would reject them.i guess it has its perks too but i figured id try to give a more nuanced take. I don't think there is anything wrong with what you're saying though.I know that its tempting to medicalize your experiences and use predefined identity categories in order to be seen as legitimate (ex. mental illness, gay, woman, man) but tbh it usually doesn't have that effect. you should do what you want, fuck what anyone else thinks.

>>3069
how does op transitioning affect women? what they do with their body is no one else's business and this really seems like a reaching statement

>>3046
i feel like it started out pretty okay but took a massive nosedive :(

i hope OP goes to therapy. i think people should have the right to do whatever they want with their body and ultimately i hope OP does what makes them happy. that's the most important thing. but i don't think there can be a healthy discussion on the internet about transitioning and gender dysphoria, and i think OP should really seek professional help. also i think that there's nothing to be ashamed of for anyone that feels this way.

>>4507
They're a TERF. The implication is that by OP transitioning from a man to a woman, something about womanhood is cheapened or misrepresented. Or, they feel that womanhood is inherently tied to childbirth or puberty, menstruation, etc.

Like, yeah, there are things about being assigned female at birth that are going to introduce you to the possibility of certain commonalities. Having periods, the fear of pregnancy if you have sex with people that can get you pregnant, breast cancer.

But naturally, the problem with this is that none of those things are truly constant. I've been hospitalized because of my periods but that puts me in a minority of women. I'm extremely likely to get breast cancer but that also puts me in a minority of women.

To me, the only thing womanhood truly has wholly in common is that if you are identified as a woman by others, you get to experience the sexist frameworks your society has in place. Trans women included. So what sense is there in excluding trans women? They're just another minority of womanhood, the same way as all other minorities in the group.

> but i don't think there can be a healthy discussion on the internet about transitioning and gender dysphoria
It exists but you really can't be looking for it in general "community spaces" like this one. But if they're in a safe state I agree, professional help is best.

I want dudebros on the internet to stop speaking about women like they're experts on women's biology, because they're not.

>>4509
If you want me to stop thinking and discussing things that I find interesting and important, I refuse, however limited my knowledge on the matter may be.

>>4511
Not the point. You can think about and discuss whatever you want, but note the
> like they're experts
Don't make definitive statements about science that are not factually correct. Anti-trans rhetoric is full of harmful medicalism that hurts cis women as well as the trans women people intend to target.

>>4511
Also, shit, would it kill people to learn how to sage?

>>4512
> Not the point.
Yes, it is. Partially. Considering the supposed lack of knowledge to evaluate the factual correctness of the definitive statements, the request
> Don't make definitive statements about science that are not factually correct
Is thus, in part, the request to abstain from any definitive statements about science altogether.
> Anti-trans rhetoric is full of harmful medicalism that hurts cis women
But does that medicalism only bring harm to them? I think that the TERF girls you mentioned would beg to disagree.

>>4514
The framework of semantics you’ve drenched this in is preventing me from writing a good response because I don’t really know what angle you’re actually coming at this from. I think it’s a reasonable ask for people not to peddle frequently circulated misinformation. I’m sorry if you felt like my phrasing was infringing on your free speech, but it costs nothing to learn more outside the bubble of talking points distributed within the circles of traditionalism and anti-transgender rhetoric. Which is what my comment was about.

> But does that medicalism only bring harm to them? I think that the TERF girls you mentioned would beg to disagree.
This is such a non-question because it doesn’t matter. Naturally it “helps” TERFs because it supports their ideas to say that women exist physically in a singular, insular way. But on the macro level it helps *nobody* because this is not how human beings exist in real life. Peer-reviewed literature about women’s health is a laughably small body of work. Gatekeeping the label of womanhood from people does nothing to aid the expansion of that field. It’s solely an ideas game.

>>4514
You really thesaurused the fuck out of this comment until it became completely incomprehensible and meaningless.

Also ffs if you're going to keep arguing, type "sage" in the email field of your comment so not everyone on hell has to see your bickering.

>>4519
Maybe you should word your ideas more accurately if you do not want passers-by to understand your profound comments in unintended ways. Although, it may as well be that they don't deserve your effort.

>>4521
> your profound comments
Dude, lmao… it's your responsibility as a poster to make sure you're understood by others. Being incomprehensible is not the same thing as being profound.

>>4521
Bro get over yourself omg

>>4522
> it's your responsibility as a poster to make sure you're understood by others
Not necessarily. Sometimes there is a fault with the receiving end.

>>4526
Yes sometimes comprehension fails on the receiving end but if your goal is to be esoteric, the fault lies with you.

Coming in here to say the path is up to you and you really, honestly shouldn't listen to altchan users when it comes to medical advice. See a therapist, they'll know better than anyone.

The entire notion of "transgender" is inherently bigoted, it's rooted in homophobia and sexism. There is no such thing as a man who expresses himself "as a woman". A man who wears makeup is expressing himself in one of the many ways that men can, and by insisting that he's a woman, or even by allowing him to insist that he's a woman, you're actively reducing the number of ways men are allowed to express themselves. You're saying "no, men aren't allowed to be beautiful or wear makeup. they have to become women if they want to do that". You're saying "no, girls aren't allowed to cut their hair short or play sports. they have to become men if they want to do that". Enforced conformity is all it is. It's no different from an oppressive traditionalist purity spiral. If you actually cared about these people you would want them to love and accept their bodies and their actual, true selves. They aren't transgender. Nobody is. There's no such thing as "transgender". They're just afraid of society bludgeoning them to force them to get back in line. So instead of changing their behavior to be more socially acceptable for men, they think they can change their bodies to be more socially acceptable for their behavior. Do you not see how that's the same problem either way? People need to stand up and say "men can wear makeup and women can have hairy legs and it's not taboo". They should never, EVER give in to the society's bigoted demands by changing their bodies to look more like the opposite sex, which never works by the way and always results in monstrosities. If you don't see why actual LGB people are against transgender ideology you're either a bad faith bigot or you have zero empathy.

>>4999
tell me you've never actually interacted with trans people without telling me

>>4999
While I agree with some of your points, I think you are narrowing down the motivation behind changing sex to social acceptance, which might not be the driving force behind a major part of these cases. For example in my eyes an equally important factor would be to establish a personal gender identity and live up to it. This form of identity is heavily influenced by perceived gender roles, just like ones value system will be influenced by parents, teachers, ones broader social group, nationality and then again things that separate you within these groups.

The emphasis here is on being influenced. People will go against the grain, if the values and behavioural patterns imposed on them don't feel right. This of course takes constant effort and removes a lot of support, but do you really think that changing ones sex with all the operations, medication, legal shit and social stigma is the easy way out?

>>4999
>hetero-patriarchal society constructs category of "woman"
>if you challenge that category, you're homophobic and sexist.
in fact it is you my friend who are sexist. You claim that you're in favour of gender non-conformity, but you refuse to challenge the categories of sex/gender and assume that they are transcendent rather than the truth that these are socially constructed, and that they have been constructed in patriarchal societies to serve the interests of patriarchy.
>A man who wears makeup is expressing himself in one of the many ways that men can, and by insisting that he's a woman, or even by allowing him to insist that he's a woman, you're actively reducing the number of ways men are allowed to express themselves. You're saying "no, men aren't allowed to be beautiful or wear makeup. they have to become women if they want to do that".
In fact, the only person who is strictly enforcing behaviours or reducing the ways one might express oneself is you. Why are you so invested in limiting the possibility space for people, ie "yes you can wear makeup, but only as a man who wears makeup".
>you would want them to love and accept their bodies and their actual, true selves.
I would like you to explain what an "actual true self" is, and why it is necesarily static and fixed. Your approach is missguided individualism, you are convinced that each person is an island seperate from social forces, and in doing so you have missidentified those social forces as unchanging essential facts of nature. To put it simply, if a "true self" is anything it is ever changing and flowing.
> They should never, EVER give in to the society's bigoted demands by changing their bodies to look more like the opposite sex
You have made a few errors here. First of all, you fail to understand that in this case, you are the person who is strictly enforcing gender categories. You talked about some basic gendered behaviours such as playing sports or wearing makeup, but have failed to explain why your logic of free desire and behaviour with regard to gender expression shouldn't extend to taking hormones, changing your name, or asking people to reffer to you be certain pronouns. Secondly, you have assumed that sex is an essential natural category, which is not the case. Sex, being a collection of biological traits, is constructed. You accept that strictly grouping people by who wears makeup or has short hair is born of an oppressive patriarchal society, is it not also the same process which choses arbitrary biological features, bundles them together and proclaims them to repressent essential categories of human which may not be transgressed? Then when people choose to transgress these categories, you lash out at them in the same manor as the hypothetical person in your post who said "men aren't allowed to be beautiful or wear makeup".